Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Film Photography & Darkroom discussion

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dfbldwn
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:49 am
Location: NE rural Georgia

Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby dfbldwn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:12 pm

I've read else where that Diafine's Solution B has a pH of 14.

Additionally, I've read that because use of a STOP BATH with Diafine development is not recommended, it also means you need an acid type Rapid Fixer.

My first idea was Clayton Chemical's Rapid Fixer, but the write-up said "[it] is non-corrosive and has excellent buffering characteristics". This to me means it's closer to a neutral fixer, rather than particularly acid or base. Eco-Pro's Neutral Fixer also seems unsuitable.

Please advise.

Thanks,
David


Keith Tapscott.
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:58 am
Location: Plymouth, England.

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby Keith Tapscott. » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 am

Any rapid-fixer from a renowned manufacturer will do, eg; Ilford Hypam/Rapid Fixer, or Kodak equivalent.

Ornello
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby Ornello » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:22 pm

Always use an acid stop bath. Kodak and Ilford make fine rapid fixers.

dfbldwn
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:49 am
Location: NE rural Georgia

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby dfbldwn » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:48 am

Thanks to both of you.

You have thwarted my ulterior motives.

After pouring out Diafine's Solution B, I'd hoped to do a 60sec rinse/wash with fresh tap water (at appropriate temperature) followed by two-stage fixing with the ECO-PRO Neutral Fixer. I've been reading the old Silvergrain.org stuff accessible from archive via Wikipedia, and was heavily influenced by the write-up on using the old Ilford Wash Method rather than hypoclear to polish off my 35mm B/W after Rapid Fixing in a small tank with a single reel.

While ECO-PRO Neutral Fixer's pH can range from 6.5 to 8.5, it is clearly intended to be a neutral pH Rapid Fixer. I am sorry to learn it won't do in this case.

I am reassured, and grateful to you both, to learn that Kodak and Ilford rapid fixers will be sufficient. I may break down and buy some Clayton Rapid Fixer, if only to test its pH in my lab.

Thanks again,
David

Ornello
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby Ornello » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:44 pm

dfbldwn wrote:Thanks to both of you.

You have thwarted my ulterior motives.

After pouring out Diafine's Solution B, I'd hoped to do a 60sec rinse/wash with fresh tap water (at appropriate temperature) followed by two-stage fixing with the ECO-PRO Neutral Fixer. I've been reading the old Silvergrain.org stuff accessible from archive via Wikipedia, and was heavily influenced by the write-up on using the old Ilford Wash Method rather than hypoclear to polish off my 35mm B/W after Rapid Fixing in a small tank with a single reel.

While ECO-PRO Neutral Fixer's pH can range from 6.5 to 8.5, it is clearly intended to be a neutral pH Rapid Fixer. I am sorry to learn it won't do in this case.

I am reassured, and grateful to you both, to learn that Kodak and Ilford rapid fixers will be sufficient. I may break down and buy some Clayton Rapid Fixer, if only to test its pH in my lab.

Thanks again,
David

But be sure to use an acid stop bath!

dfbldwn
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:49 am
Location: NE rural Georgia

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby dfbldwn » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:11 am

Ornello wrote: But be sure to use an acid stop bath!
Please review for me why an acid stop bath is superior to a 60 second wash/rinse with fresh tap water at the appropriate temperature when I use a conventional developer(e.g. Ilford DD-X or D76 1+1).

I'm the last person to ignore your experience and advice. However, even the Ilford instructions concede that a water wash/rinse can be used instead of a stop bath before using their Rapid Fixer, and that many prefer using a wash to using an acid stop bath. If there was some buffer chemistry going on that absolutely required an acid stop precede Rapid Fixer, wouldn't Ilford have mentioned it in their Rapid Fixer instruction sheet?

It's true Ilford recommends an acid stop, but they don't provide an explanation for the end user to make an informed decision. I'm hoping you can.

All I've got to go on is that Ilford introduced the Ilford Wash Method, and the silvergrain.org fellow writes that he ran tests showing it really does reduce ammonium thiosulfate levels to below archival standards. Yet Ilford recommends using their Hypoclearing agent.

Thanks for your generous attention to my confusion.

To go a bit off topic, you never use an acid stop bath with Diafine:
1) The instructions strictly prohibit it.

2) The Solution B of this 2-bath developer has already exhausted 90% of the Solution A two to three minutes before you pour Solution B out, and has fully consumed the Solution A by the time indicated on the box instructions. That is, any development has already finished. It only needs washing to avoid any dichroic staining which may occur when Fixer directly contacts developer(Solution A or Solution B). I've tested this by successfully producing dichroic stains on my Tri-X with marvelous consistency.

3) Diafine's Solution B is a pH 14. You put an acid stop in there and you'll get blisters in your film emulsion due to the gas produced by directly mixing an acid with such a high base. Somebody provided scans of it on photo.net Most of the posters thought it was film reticulation due to bad temperature control or fixer.

Conclusion: The Digital Truth Forum is a much better place to get informed opinion.

Ornello
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby Ornello » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:16 am

dfbldwn wrote:
Ornello wrote: But be sure to use an acid stop bath!
Please review for me why an acid stop bath is superior to a 60 second wash/rinse with fresh tap water at the appropriate temperature when I use a conventional developer(e.g. Ilford DD-X or D76 1+1).

I'm the last person to ignore your experience and advice. However, even the Ilford instructions concede that a water wash/rinse can be used instead of a stop bath before using their Rapid Fixer, and that many prefer using a wash to using an acid stop bath. If there was some buffer chemistry going on that absolutely required an acid stop precede Rapid Fixer, wouldn't Ilford have mentioned it in their Rapid Fixer instruction sheet?

It's true Ilford recommends an acid stop, but they don't provide an explanation for the end user to make an informed decision. I'm hoping you can.

All I've got to go on is that Ilford introduced the Ilford Wash Method, and the silvergrain.org fellow writes that he ran tests showing it really does reduce ammonium thiosulfate levels to below archival standards. Yet Ilford recommends using their Hypoclearing agent.

Thanks for your generous attention to my confusion.

To go a bit off topic, you never use an acid stop bath with Diafine:
1) The instructions strictly prohibit it.

2) The Solution B of this 2-bath developer has already exhausted 90% of the Solution A two to three minutes before you pour Solution B out, and has fully consumed the Solution A by the time indicated on the box instructions. That is, any development has already finished. It only needs washing to avoid any dichroic staining which may occur when Fixer directly contacts developer(Solution A or Solution B). I've tested this by successfully producing dichroic stains on my Tri-X with marvelous consistency.

3) Diafine's Solution B is a pH 14. You put an acid stop in there and you'll get blisters in your film emulsion due to the gas produced by directly mixing an acid with such a high base. Somebody provided scans of it on photo.net Most of the posters thought it was film reticulation due to bad temperature control or fixer.

Conclusion: The Digital Truth Forum is a much better place to get informed opinion.

Use an acid stop bath. If you don't, you will get scum on your film. I tried it, and that's what happened. You may use a plain water rinse first if you wish, but use an acid stop bath immediately thereafter. I tried going without an acid stop bath and regretted it. Just do it. Voice of experience.

dfbldwn
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:49 am
Location: NE rural Georgia

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby dfbldwn » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:04 am

Ornello wrote: Use an acid stop bath. If you don't, you will get scum on your film. I tried it, and that's what happened. You may use a plain water rinse first if you wish, but use an acid stop bath immediately thereafter. I tried going without an acid stop bath and regretted it. Just do it. Voice of experience.
Thanks for your good advice!

Did you ever get a scanner? If so, how's that working out?

Cheers,
David

Ornello
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: Acid type Rapid Fixers - request recommendation

Postby Ornello » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:07 pm

dfbldwn wrote:
Ornello wrote: Use an acid stop bath. If you don't, you will get scum on your film. I tried it, and that's what happened. You may use a plain water rinse first if you wish, but use an acid stop bath immediately thereafter. I tried going without an acid stop bath and regretted it. Just do it. Voice of experience.
Thanks for your good advice!

Did you ever get a scanner? If so, how's that working out?

Cheers,
David
No, did not buy a scanner.


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