pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 stand

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manojsharma_2001
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pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 stand

Postby manojsharma_2001 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:43 am

hi
this is my first post so i don't know how much information i would be able to draw from this group. the issue is that i want to develop my ulterafine xtreme 400 black and white film with stand development method and i will use gsd10 for that since i want to push my film two stop(400 to 1600)i am not able to determine exact time and inversion it would need since this is a stand development chemical i have very little information about it. i have pushed my extreme film with kodak d76 with a data sheet which was meant for Kodak tri x film. but now i want to try stand development i know there is lot of experienced people here who has abundance of information for the same.
so in short i require information about pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 stand development method
please help

regards
manoj


Ornello
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Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm

Stand development was used with glass plates in a horizontal position. Attempting it with roll film in a tank will cause streaking, as the development by-products (which suppress development because they are acidic) are heavier than the developer solution and will run down the film drawn by gravity (agitation disperses these by-products so that streaking does not occur). With plates this was not an issue, as the by-products remained in place (on the surface of the horizontal plate). The technique is obsolete, and has been for almost 100 years, as it cannot be used with roll films in tanks. The technique was developed to cope with the materials available in the 19th century. Contemporary materials are not suited for the technique. All major manufacturers of sensitized products recommend agitation, not without reason.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_development

Also, you cannot push film. It is a myth.
Last edited by Ornello on Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

pirateoversixty
Posts: 195
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Location: Peoria, Illinois

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby pirateoversixty » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:37 pm

(yawn) here we go again. If you would like to view a discussion between jay de fehr and ornello, go back aways. they fought stand to a standstill. can't agree with orny on streaking, but I have found inconsistent results with stand. I used hc-110 119 parts water to 1 part syrup. some good, some not so good with xreme400 120. decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
orny is partly right with push processing. you are only altering the characteristic curve by underexposing and over developing. BUT. there are some developers on the market that can give you a usable neg. I can only advise you to do your own homework on this.
jim
ps. estreme400 is best kept a secret to preserve supplies for those of us in the know.

pirateoversixty
Posts: 195
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Location: Peoria, Illinois

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby pirateoversixty » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:42 pm

having pontificated as I did, I decided to check out jay defehr's website re gsd 10. enlightening. first, it is a simple formula to mix. if the picture of the little lady he posted as an example is any indicator, it looks quite good. 2nd, I would try jay's recommendation of 24' to an hour. this is something you will have to work out by experimentation. I may mix some up myself after the holidays and give it a go. I have never pushed extreme 400 past its box speed of 400, but this does indeed look promising.
jim

Ornello
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Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:02 pm

pirateoversixty wrote:(yawn) here we go again. If you would like to view a discussion between jay de fehr and ornello, go back aways. they fought stand to a standstill. can't agree with orny on streaking, but I have found inconsistent results with stand. I used hc-110 119 parts water to 1 part syrup. some good, some not so good with xreme400 120. decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
orny is partly right with push processing. you are only altering the characteristic curve by underexposing and over developing. BUT. there are some developers on the market that can give you a usable neg. I can only advise you to do your own homework on this.
jim
ps. estreme400 is best kept a secret to preserve supplies for those of us in the know.
From what I have read, glycin is supposed to be less prone to streaking than other developing agents. Still, stand development was a technique used with glass plates placed in a horizontal position, where the development by-products that inhibit development remain where they form. In a tank where films are held vertically on reels, these by-products are free to move down the surface of the film, producing streaks. These by-products are heavier than the developer itself, and thus sink because of the force of gravity. Gentle agitation is used to disperse them, and that is why agitation is recommended. I use very gentle agitation, two inversions once per minute. Paterson tanks.

Agitation is necessary for consistent results.

pirateoversixty
Posts: 195
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Location: Peoria, Illinois

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby pirateoversixty » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:42 am

probably totally unrelated to OP, but have been browsing old copies of "darkroom and creative camera techniques", and in the nov/dec 1989 issue, Phil Davis gives his take on agitation, and what causes streaks and so forth. his desire for even development resulted in his "reinvention" of tube processing of film, but his target was sheet film. but some of the same observations may apply to roll film also.
jim

Ornello
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:14 am

pirateoversixty wrote:probably totally unrelated to OP, but have been browsing old copies of "darkroom and creative camera techniques", and in the nov/dec 1989 issue, Phil Davis gives his take on agitation, and what causes streaks and so forth. his desire for even development resulted in his "reinvention" of tube processing of film, but his target was sheet film. but some of the same observations may apply to roll film also.
jim
The is a tendency to excessive contrast with constant agitation. Softer-working (more dilute) developers with shorter developing times are called for. Again, most, if not all manufacturers recommend intermittent agitation, for the very simple reason that it almost always provides the best results. Because of the sprocket holes, constant agitation can cause problems.

Jim Appleyard
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Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Jim Appleyard » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:58 am

Lots of folks use SD very successfully. Give it a try, there's more than one opinion out there.

http://www.apug.org/forums/search.php?searchid=5205381

Ornello
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Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:41 pm

Jim Appleyard wrote:Lots of folks use SD very successfully. Give it a try, there's more than one opinion out there.

http://www.apug.org/forums/search.php?searchid=5205381
I use gentle, minimal agitation, two inversions (with rotation) once per minute. I also fill the tank almost to the top, leaving only a small amount of air at the top of the tank. I use Paterson tanks (the older style). I use FX-39 developer (formerly Paterson, now sold by Adox) diluted 1+14 for most films, condenser enlarger, Leitz Focotar-2 lens, and grade 3 paper. My negatives are very easy to print, and prints (even from ISO 400 films) have almost no grain. I usually give 2/3 stop more exposure with all films, as this gives more of the slower grains extra light. By reducing the degree of development and increasing the exposure slightly, images have finer grain and better sharpness. The largest grains are restrained from developing as fully (leaving them smaller) and the smallest grains receive more exposure (making more of them developable). Since the appearance of graininess is actually caused by the gaps between grains, and since this approach tends to decrease the size of such gaps, this technique suppresses graininess. Most folks do not understand how film works.

Keith Tapscott.
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Location: Plymouth, England.

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Keith Tapscott. » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:34 am

What dev times are you using with FX39?

These images from films developed in FX39 look good.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=ado ... view_all=1

Jim, your link doesn't seem to be working.

Ornello
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:49 am

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:52 am

Keith Tapscott. wrote:What dev times are you using with FX39?

These images from films developed in FX39 look good.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=ado ... view_all=1

Jim, your link doesn't seem to be working.

Basically, I use the times given by Paterson for 1+9 dilution, but dilute 1+14 instead. I also rate the films about 2/3 stop lower (e.g., EI 250 for ISO 400 films). This gives better shadow detail and highlights don't get too heavy because of the greater dilution.

pirateoversixty
Posts: 195
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Location: Peoria, Illinois

Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby pirateoversixty » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:21 pm

Ornello:
I assume this is the fx-39 you referred to in you January post last year. I am guessing that you are finding it meets your standards vis a vis other developers.
Jim

Ornello
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Re: pushing ulterafine extreme 400 to 1600 with a gsd10 st

Postby Ornello » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:58 am

pirateoversixty wrote:Ornello:
I assume this is the fx-39 you referred to in you January post last year. I am guessing that you are finding it meets your standards vis a vis other developers.
Jim

It is very good, perhaps the sharpest developer I have ever used, with very fine grain.


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