Rollei Infrared 5 minute Presoak

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tri3mast
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Rollei Infrared 5 minute Presoak

Post by tri3mast »

I’ve now used Rollei Infrared film for better then a month and going onto my third box of five. The first roll was in a 6x9 camera and I only received four good images from the possible eight. As that was the first roll I was doing a lot of experimentation and for roll after I switched to my Pentax 645.

The Pentax 645n has an imprinting function which I find helpful but forgot to shut it off when I was using the Rollei Infrared. To my surprise and delight the imprinting function didn’t fog the film, as this to me is a plus feature I’ve left it on and continue to receive good results.

I’ve shot this film more so as an Infrared but two rolls from the first box were shot as “normal” B&W and other then my first roll have enjoyed good results.

As a straight B&W film the Rollei Infrared closely parallels Kodak Tri-X 400 in my opinion and with my processing techniques the Rollei shows less grain.

I receive bright highlights showing beautiful detail and shadow separation.

The film scans well and the negatives look like 645 B&W slides.

The film handles much like any other normal B&W except for a presoak which some processing charts say 30 seconds while others say 5 minutes.

It’s the presoak where I think I’m going wrong, my images are great except it takes me hours to make them Print Ready because of the black flakey looking dirt that is right into the emulsion.

I’ll add that it’s a whole lot better now then the second roll but still a long way from being clean coming out of the wetting agent and hanging to dry.

I’ve changed my processing technique to include this presoaking and carefully remove the film from one tank and place in another so I’m not pouring the presoak over the film.

This help a lot but, these beautiful image damaging black flakes of dirt are still there.

So has anyone had a similar problem with presoaking. I’m lifting the film out of one tank and placing it in another after the 5 minutes. The film is suspended off the tank bottom with a fancy collar and removed carefully so not to create a suction.

Should I go from one tank of water to another and continue the presoaking for another say 3 minutes to completely remove all of this layer?

It’s tricky doing this in a changing room/tent but the results are worth the effort.

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

Hi Robert,

If the substance that is adhering to your films resembles black dirt, then it must be being introduced during processing. I'm not sure that the presoak will have any affect whatsoever in this regard. Can you actually see physical particles and wash them off the film? If this is the case, then these are most likely coming through your water system or are in your developer or other processing solutions. If you develop a different film, are there no particles? Its possible that for some reason you are getting tiny flecks of solid matter in your water or coming out of solution in you processing chemistry, and that these are adhering to the Rollei film's polyester base. Another issue might be if you are wiping the film down to dry, as this can have an adverse affect with the film base.
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tri3mast
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:03 pm

Post by tri3mast »

From your reply I can tell I’ve not been specific.

I regularly use Ilford film mostly Delta 100 and FP4 and alternate between these two and the Rollei none of my Ilford films display these flecks of dirt.

Maybe dirt isn’t the correct terminology as this stuff will not clean off it’s actually part of the emulsion.

When I first had the problem I was doing the presoak for 5 minutes with all chemicals at the same temperatures so there would be no shock to the film.

However after the 5 minutes I would pour the water out of the tank and continue with the processing in the same manner as I develop my other B&W films.

So the same water source, chemicals and processing techniques are used in developing the film except the presoak.

After that first mess and my shock of having such beautiful images take hours to clean up I asked my local mini lab who suggested I transfer the film from one tank to another.

To do this I needed to purchase a Changing room/tent to give me the space required, since doing this the particles are much less but still require hours of cleaning.

Information about this film is a little scarce yet, but presoaking films has been done for a long time, it’s just that this particular film is unique in is chemical make up and base.

If it were flecks of dirt or dust I would have used an antistatic cloth or dust blow.

Thinking about it more it’s as if the chemical being removed in the presoak hasn’t completely been removed.

Developing charts says presoak for 30 seconds, The Massive Dev Chart recommends 5 minutes, yet another suggests that it be done until the water comes out clear.

At this time I have no more Infrared film to develop and now we have been cast into the winter months my Infrared shooting will be much reduced.

I’d hate to use up a roll in the studio making portraiture to find I’ve got the same problem I’m just trying to find a solution before I go to much further with this stuff.

Thank you for your response.

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

Hi Robert,

The fact that these are particles which you are cleaning from the film indicates that they are coming from an external source. If this was a problem with the emulsion, we would already know about, and no one has ever reported such an issue. Additionally, the manufacturing and quality control used to produce this film is of an extremely high standard.

My assertion that the particles are being introduced from an external source is borne out of the fact that you are able to clean the film. If the emulsion itself was somehow damaged, then it would be impossible to clean without making the damage apparent in the negative.

If you have no problems with other film then there are really only two possibilities: first, that the polyester base of the film is picking up dust when it is wiped down. I'd recommend not wiping it down at all to see if it eliminates the problem. Second, some kind of particulate is being formed during processing as a result of a reaction between the emulsion and your chemistry. Try switching your developer, fixer, stop bath and washing aid to see if any change occurs. If you eliminate the stop and washing aid entirely, you can check this more easily. Finally, you could try using distilled water. As no one else has reported this problem, its possible that it is something localized in the content of your water which is causing the reaction. If your water is unfiltered, try using a micron filter.

Without further testing it is hard to say anything more, but maybe someone else will have further ideas.
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tri3mast
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:03 pm

Post by tri3mast »

We are not communicating,

This is not a surface dust or flecks of lint this is an actual part of the film in the emulsion.

As I wrote in the previous posting (If it were flecks of dirt or dust I would have used an antistatic cloth or dust blow.)

I’ve used several “normal” B&W films Kodak Plus-X, Ilford Delta 100 and FP4 in both 120 and 34mm those negatives are clean right out of the tube hung to dry.

The only thing I need to do to them is maybe use a puffer when getting ready to scan.

I do the same with the Rollei.

Scan at 2400dpi both types of film Normal B&W clean Rollei dirty.

I even did some Ilford SFX and it was clean as well got the Infrared effects but I hate the grain.

Rollei is smooth and preferred if I can get around this problem.

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

Robert,

I understand what you are saying, however it is not possible that these are part of the emulsion. If you are able to clean the particles off, then how can they be part of the emulsion? If these particles were part of the emulsion, then when you clean them off you would see holes in the emulsion. I guess what you are saying is they appear to be embedded in the emulsion; however, if they were embedded in the emulsion during manufacturing or any time prior to shooting, then you would be exposing the film with these embedded particles, and when you remove them you would see damage to the negative, or at least some kind of inconsistency. If you can clean the film and end up with a perfect negative, then logically the particles must be being introduced during processing.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying in my previous posting. The kind of particles you have described can appear embedded in the emulsion if they are allowed to dry in. This is not the same as dust which is attracted to film by static after the film is dry, and can be blown off. Once something dries in the emulsion it appears to be part of the film, but can be removed with water or alcohol and a fine brush or rewash. This is not an uncommon problem and although it hasn't happened with your other film, chances are that is what is happening here. The most likely place that the particles are being introduced is during the wash sequence or during drying. The film's polyester base is different from the other films you use, so it may be an issue arising from its properties. For example, it is not always advisable to wipe down this kind of material.

Please describe how you are cleaning the film as this may provide further insight.
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tri3mast
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:03 pm

Post by tri3mast »

Jon,

We are not communicating and I was shaking my head over this until I went back and read both our postings from the beginning.

You are under the impression I’m physically cleaning the film to remove these flakes of what ever the stuff is.

While the “KEY” to this conversation was cleaning the dirt off

This dirt, flakes, black blotches, hunga, Yack Dung or what ever else you want to label it is being cleaned one spot at a time in Photoshop.

This problem is in the film not on it.

Looking at the negatives with a 10 power loupe or even my little 8 power I can just see them in the sky, water and sometimes in the highlights of the foliage.

Now before you ask for me to post something please understand I’m in the transition of going from a PC to an iMac

My PC is now down and I haven’t switched the hardware programing to the Mac as yet, we are having words so far the Mac is winning.

The PC programing obviously isn’t going to work so I’m going from P.S. 7 to Photoshop CS3, should have gone for the extendid version but didn’t know it was there until after.

Right now I’m doing pretty good to have this puppy on-line and be able to use it.

What I’d love to do is some how show you a 100% crop of just a section of this stuff cause I know it would blow your socks off.

It’s in the film not on it.

This might be a key, you know when you get a shadow area in a digital image and you increase the brightness to a point it comes apart and just looks black blotchy?

Well that’s what it looks like sort of but through out the whole image.

Maybe that will cast some light on the issue.

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

OK, now I understand. However, even if you are digitally removing the particles, what I have said previously about the particles still stands. I've not heard other reports of any problem, so the likelihood is that the problem is being introduced during processing and the particles are drying into the emulsion. If you have a negative that you don't need, then try scanning it and then physically washing it in a solution of room temperature water and a few drops of wetting agent. Leave it to soak for 20-30 minutes and gently run the film through your fingers a couple times. Then rinse 30-60 secs under a running tap and hang to dry. After the negative has dried, rescan it to see if there is any change in the distribution of particles.

I'm pretty sure that these are particles, but if they aren't then the only other conclusion is that there is some kind of reaction taking place during processing which is causing them to form. If that is the case it must be something localized as we don't have other reported problems. I've also shot this film many times myself and have scanned the negatives with no sign of a single anomoly in the emulsion.

If your problem is the result of a chemical reaction, then you could try using different chemistry, or use distilled water in your developer (and ideally your other solutions).
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tri3mast
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Post by tri3mast »

Jon,

In a previous posting I said that I was between a PC and a Mac upgrade.

The PC work station is not yet completed and I don’t think it will be back on line until early next week and and I’m still learning the programing for the Mac.

I understand what you are saying about a negative scanning washing and then scanning again, good idea I’ll do that as soon as I can and post the results.

However just because I’m the only one that’s said anything about these blotches doesn’t mean that it’s my processing techniques.

Water used is distilled from bottles that runs through a circulating system, it’s not municipal water.

The temperature is controlled and fresh distilled water is used for one shot mixing of the chemicals, I know my chemistry is clean.

Now if I can move these particals then I’m going to assume my problem stems back to the presoaking.

I have a problem and would like to find the solution so WHEN others find themselves in the same position they have a source of information to correct it.

Cheers

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

I have personally developed many rolls of film from the identical batch to the one we sell on the web site and there is no hint of a problem. Additionally, many other users have been supplied with film from this batch - we are talking about thousands of people - and no one has reported a problem. Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility of a manufacturing problem, but it seems extremely unlikely.

I accept that your water is clean and your chemistry is good, but the most likely cause is some kind of localized chemical reaction, issues pertaining to washing, or drying the polyester base.

The prewash is specified to allow for dye removal, more even development and full saturation into the emulsion layers, there is no reason it should affect formation of particles.

Have you tried developing without using distilled water? Just one more variable to remove.

One other possibility is that your film has been affected by some kind of adverse storage conditions. I'm sure you keep it properly, but its possible that it has been exposed to something which has reacted with the emulsion.
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tri3mast
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Post by tri3mast »

Jon,

Wow, I’m not questioning your expertise or your ability to develop film nor am I questioning the film.

In opening this thread I stated in bold text “It’s the presoak where I think I’m going wrong” and still feel the same way.

It isn’t the first time I’ve pioneered a problem all it takes is one person to actually say something and possibly more will come forward.

Hey I can’t be the only one that’s having this flakey problem and I doubt the only one that is actually attempting to print this stuff larger then a proof print.

My proofs are 11x17 and if the neg isn’t clean I can see it.

Now one thing you did say in your last posting is that the presoak is to allow for the dye removal, more even development and full saturation into the emulsion layers.

Which now brings us back to what I originally said opening the post “It’s the presoak”.

I now don’t believe that the 5 minutes of presoak at 68 degrees F is completely clearing this dye.

This is now confirming another site’s finding that the presoak should be done until the water comes out clear, which will be my next step.

I’ll modify or build a special tank that will allow for me to drain the water from the bottom and add fresh clean at the top. Once the Dye is eliminated then the process can continue.

However I’ll try what you suggested about washing the film again and putting it through the rinse with a wetting agent, re scan and have a look just out of interest.

Robert in Canada

tri3mast
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Post by tri3mast »

I think part of the problem here is my inability to express exactly what it is I’m seeing on the negative to give me these black blotches

I’ve selected an image of fall trees along a river bank with a nice patch of sky and the trees are reflected in the river.

At first I thought here is a nice clean image but a closer look at the negative with an eight power loupe showed what appeared to be rain drops on the water.

So when the images scans what appears as rain drop on the water is now the black blotches.

The negative (what is light is dark and what is dark is light) so on the negative these are light (clear) blotches producing black blotches on the scan.

These my friends don’t wash or rub off as I said in a previous posting it’s in the film not on it.

Robert in Canada

tri3mast
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Post by tri3mast »

Well people after an hour in the lab and two different scans we collectively came to the conclusion that what it is, is the grain.

The film is sharp and then used with a sharp lens and scanned with a good scanner you end up with a sharp image, actually too sharp.

I also had a series of images from the 6x9, scanning one of these was entirely different nice texture no blotches beautiful foliage, great clean image.

So this was a case of over sharp something similar to over sharpening in Photoshop.

Well at least I know

Robert in Canada

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Post by Digitaltruth »

I'd like to clarify this thread so that people understand that there is no problem with the film.

It now seems as if the issue is related to sharpening in your scanner.

I just want to assure all other users of the product that no similar scanning problems have been reported, and we have had many people send us excellent scans made with this film. I have personally scanned the film with perfect results, and the clear polyester base actually helps produce excellent scans.
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tri3mast
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:03 pm

Post by tri3mast »

Jon,

Isn’t that what I just said?

I haven’t said anything poorly towards this film.

My problem began when I switched from using the 6x9 format to a 645.

With the 6x9 lens being a little softer then the 645 and NOT having the scanner sharpness adjusted the resulting images were (are) sharp and show no blotches.

I too have prints mostly 11x17 from this film that are stunning.

This weekend I’ll be shooting a few frames with the Rollei Infrared but make darn sure I turn off the sharpening feature on the scanner.

In parting
I’ve not said anything wrong about this film you have constantly defended it when there was no defense needed.

I’m the only one that is having problems I doubt that.

Reassuring others about nothing being wrong with the film instead of helping with a problem to get to the actual cause.

Some of your comments began to get a little personal about my abilities you aren’t the only one out here with film no how.

You and I don’t communicate and that’s to bad.

Robert in Canada
Last edited by tri3mast on Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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