Stand development: why do people do it?

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kcf
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Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby kcf » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:28 pm

I tried stand development once when I used to push a lot of film. I used a method I'd read about in Les McClean's book "Creative Darkroom Photography" which recommended Tri-x in D-76 1:40 (!) stood in a bath for five hours. I have to think the dilution he recommends was a misprint. Needless to say the experiment was an utter failure, yielding blank plastic. I've never since considered stand development, but I do read about others doing it and wonder where the idea comes from and why people do it. Les McClean says he got his method from an old newsman, which makes me assume its an older method from another era. There's something quaint and mysterious about it, which might account for its popularity in internet discussion groups: people love lost, secret methods known only to old newsmen. But is there any real reason to do stand development nowadays?


Keith Tapscott.
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Keith Tapscott. » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:40 pm

kcf wrote:I tried stand development once when I used to push a lot of film. I used a method I'd read about in Les McClean's book "Creative Darkroom Photography" which recommended Tri-x in D-76 1:40 (!) stood in a bath for five hours. I have to think the dilution he recommends was a misprint.
The suggested dilution was most likely to have been 1+4 rather 1+40, so it`s probably a typo.
I have to say that I have seen enlargements from negatives made by stand-developed film back in April and I couldn't see anything magical about them.
You might want to read `NIGHT PHOTOGRAPHY` by Andrew Sanderson who recommends partial stand development to control the inherent high-contrast of street-lit scenes. In this case, he likes ID-11 diluted 1+3 with HP5 Plus film. There are some very good images in the book too which might make you want to have a go at it yourself. :idea:

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:08 pm

kcf wrote:I tried stand development once when I used to push a lot of film. I used a method I'd read about in Les McClean's book "Creative Darkroom Photography" which recommended Tri-x in D-76 1:40 (!) stood in a bath for five hours. I have to think the dilution he recommends was a misprint. Needless to say the experiment was an utter failure, yielding blank plastic. I've never since considered stand development, but I do read about others doing it and wonder where the idea comes from and why people do it. Les McClean says he got his method from an old newsman, which makes me assume its an older method from another era. There's something quaint and mysterious about it, which might account for its popularity in internet discussion groups: people love lost, secret methods known only to old newsmen. But is there any real reason to do stand development nowadays?
Will these discredited old ideas never die? Stand development was used with glass plates when the plate could be placed perfectly horizontal. With roll film it has no practical application. When placed perfectly horizontal, the by-products of development cannot move and locally inhibit development in dense areas. If the film is roll film positioned vertically, you get streaking. That's why proper agitation is important.

Instead, use dilute developers and agitate once per minute properly.

foolscape
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby foolscape » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:15 pm

Ornello wrote:Will these discredited old ideas never die? Stand development was used with glass plates when the plate could be placed perfectly horizontal. With roll film it has no practical application. When placed perfectly horizontal, the by-products of development cannot move and locally inhibit development in dense areas. If the film is roll film positioned vertically, you get streaking. That's why proper agitation is important.

Instead, use dilute developers and agitate once per minute properly.
Sheet film can also lie perfectly horizontal. Ansel Adams used stand or semi-stand on occasion for compensation effects. I've done it on occasion with night images or with high contrast scenes.

--Gary

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:11 pm

foolscape wrote:
Ornello wrote:Will these discredited old ideas never die? Stand development was used with glass plates when the plate could be placed perfectly horizontal. With roll film it has no practical application. When placed perfectly horizontal, the by-products of development cannot move and locally inhibit development in dense areas. If the film is roll film positioned vertically, you get streaking. That's why proper agitation is important.

Instead, use dilute developers and agitate once per minute properly.
Sheet film can also lie perfectly horizontal. Ansel Adams used stand or semi-stand on occasion for compensation effects. I've done it on occasion with night images or with high contrast scenes.

--Gary
Well, sheet film has a slight curvature to it...so bear that in mind. Only glass plates are perfectly flat.

foolscape
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby foolscape » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:53 pm

True. I also wish I could spell the word "night." "Proofread," my professors told me, "proofread."

--Gary

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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Keith Tapscott. » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:22 pm

foolscape wrote:True. I also wish I could spell the word "night." "Proofread," my professors told me, "proofread."

--Gary
It s correct now Gary.

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:24 pm

foolscape wrote:True. I also wish I could spell the word "night." "Proofread," my professors told me, "proofread."

--Gary
I would say that even slight curvature could be a problem. Not sure, but quite possible. The film or plate needs to stay perfectly level so that no streaks occur.

A lot of people who try something they may have heard about don't always get the whole story, and thus when their results are unsatisfactory they tend to blame themselves or their equipment when in fact it's simply that they didn't know all the details. Another example is pyro. This type of developer produces a stain in addition to the silver deposit. The stain (yellowish-green in color) adds density when using the old contact-printing types of paper (silver chloride). Contact paper is insensitive to green light, and thus the stain appears as density. With enlarging papers (especially variable-contrast types) the stain does not have any significant effect, so it's a waste of effort to use pyro with enlarging papers. Also, pyro developers do not provide the definition and fine grain of MQ Borax solvent types (D-76, Microphen, Microdol-X, etc.). So, as in many things, the devil is in the details. An old or discredited technique may be "successfully" attempted, but the results may not be as good as you expected or heard. There may be a good reason why the technique was abandoned to begin with.
Last edited by Ornello on Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foolscape
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby foolscape » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:59 am

As it just happens, I am going into an endeavor into contact printing with Michael & Paula's new Lodima paper, which is their replacement for Azo. I've been developing with Pyro off and on for a few years, and have not always been satisfied with the results. Sometimes the negatives produce superb prints, and sometimes the contrast is decreased to the point of being unprintable on VC paper. On graded paper they usually work fine. We'll see how they look on Lodima.

I have been moving to developers like Xtol and HC110, rather than more exotic developers. By the way, HC110 makes an excellent stand developer, if one was inclined to do that.

Gary

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:55 pm

foolscape wrote:As it just happens, I am going into an endeavor into contact printing with Michael & Paula's new Lodima paper, which is their replacement for Azo. I've been developing with Pyro off and on for a few years, and have not always been satisfied with the results. Sometimes the negatives produce superb prints, and sometimes the contrast is decreased to the point of being unprintable on VC paper. On graded paper they usually work fine. We'll see how they look on Lodima.

I have been moving to developers like Xtol and HC110, rather than more exotic developers. By the way, HC110 makes an excellent stand developer, if one was inclined to do that.

Gary
VC paper to light light of a color which the stain transmits, so it (the stain) might as well not even be there. Pyro should be used only with contact paper (silver chloride). Even graded papers (which use silver bromide) have some green sensitivity.
Last edited by Ornello on Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

foolscape
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby foolscape » Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:00 pm

I believe that's what Azo and the new Lodima are. They are silver chloride papers.

--Gary

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:48 am

foolscape wrote:I believe that's what Azo and the new Lodima are. They are silver chloride papers.

--Gary
Correct. Silver chloride is slower than silver bromide but produces glorious tones. Pyro works with silver chloride papers best, but it is not necessary to use it with such papers.

Keith Tapscott.
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Keith Tapscott. » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:18 pm

I think I read somewhere (The LF forum?) that silver chloride papers such as Kodak Azo were often used for contact-printing 8x10 negatives by commercial photographers.
Lodima (Amidol spelt backwards) is a new silver chloride paper designed as a replacement for Azo.
The technical information for Azo might still be useful for anyone who wants to try Lodima.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professi ... 10/g10.pdf

Ornello
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby Ornello » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:35 am

Keith Tapscott. wrote:I think I read somewhere (The LF forum?) that silver chloride papers such as Kodak Azo were often used for contact-printing 8x10 negatives by commercial photographers.
Lodima (Amidol spelt backwards) is a new silver chloride paper designed as a replacement for Azo.
The technical information for Azo might still be useful for anyone who wants to try Lodima.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professi ... 10/g10.pdf
I wonder who's manufacturing the paper? Someplace in Hungary? Czech Republic?

miha
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Re: Stand development: why do people do it?

Postby miha » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:09 pm

Ornello wrote:
Keith Tapscott. wrote:I think I read somewhere (The LF forum?) that silver chloride papers such as Kodak Azo were often used for contact-printing 8x10 negatives by commercial photographers.
Lodima (Amidol spelt backwards) is a new silver chloride paper designed as a replacement for Azo.
The technical information for Azo might still be useful for anyone who wants to try Lodima.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professi ... 10/g10.pdf
I wonder who's manufacturing the paper? Someplace in Hungary? Czech Republic?
There are at least two candidates: Fujifilm and Foma Bohemia

http://www.japanexposures.com/2008/06/0 ... ght-paper/
http://www.foma.cz/upload/foma/prilohy/F_lux_en.pdf

They are both RC papers, though.


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